|The Second of Two OOC Game Meetings|
|Summary:||An OOC Game Meeting|
|Related:||The First OOC Game Meeting|
I want to thank everyone for coming to this meeting. To start off I would like to make an announcement: Tyrel and Ciarrah will no longer be PCs. From here on out they will be NPCs. Despite us making this change to the characters, these characters will make appearances, but these appearances will be rare. What we are hoping to do is give more power to the Voice; the Heads of House; and members of the Council. We are going to encourage people to seek out the Voice and the The Council. We have streamed line the process of the Voice getting information. If the Voice and the Council will not do then you will still need to contact the Voice (icly) so that an audience with the king can be scheduled. If your character has not heard back from a Head of House, Council Member or the Voice in a timely manner put in a +request and we will help this process along.
You say, "Any questions or concerns about Tyrel and Ciarrah?"
Avi says, "Definitely not from me, but you know why that is"
Dair nods to Avi.
Cian says, "All good here"
Emma already raised concerns and they've been addressed it looks like!
You say, "This is the part of the meeting where we turn it into an open forum. If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to ask them."
Lilja raises a hand.
You say, "Yes Lilja?'"
Lilja says, "I was wondering if it would be possible to switch the rulingattr on Defense from body to reaction? At times, defense is, by definition, a reaction."
Aldren thinks you can do it in char gen. Just get sent back? Unless you meant in general?
Caedmon says, "I think that you can do that already in CG. If so, we might need to allow people to revisit CG retroactively and set the +rulingattr permanently in code if doing so makes sense."
Caedmon says, "At one point in the game's history, the admin asked everyone to go back through CG due to an adjustment that they made to FS3."
Lilja shakes her head. "You can't."
You say, "That is one that honestly I had not thought about Lilja and it is one that we can look into. I understand what you are asking. I also understand what Aldren and Caedmon are saying. We will look into this."
Lilja says, "You can only change rulingattr on backgrouns skills, not action skills."
You say, "Correct"
Lilja says, "Or whatever the first set of skills are called here."
Lilja grins. "I am familiar with messing around with my rulingattr where possible.
<JUDGE> Dair says, "Please note that for this meeting I am logging it and making a list of action items for us. :) So your imput, questions and concerns are apperciated."
You say, "Next question and or concern?"
Emma says, "Prps, plots and the like. Are you bringing more staff in to positions to get the ball rolling on more things?"
You say, "We would like to hire more staff but first we need to finish implementing a number of changes. For one we want to get the overarching storyline moving. We are also encouraging players to run Prps aka Tp's. We just ask that players send in a request so we know what is happening and we can help out if needed. The other reason is if we get a request asking for information we know who to send them to for that information."
You say, "The final reason is to offer guidance if need because of the theme and or offer suggestions."
Emma says, "How do players know what to run for PRPS that involve the larger arching story line?"
Emma says, "Is it possible to put out storylines that need running on something like a job board and have players able to select a storyline to help run?"
Emma says, "Otherwise prps with no hook to the overarching story line will pewter out as they tend to focus on the player running them and their own personal interests, which gets boring."
Emma can only handle someone being kidnapped and junk for so long with 1. not being able to participate, 2, select people only being able to participate, 3. it being meaningless beyond that individuals ego.
Emma says, "That comment goes towards previous plots of a family, not recent one being run with Logen."
Avi says, "I think they are more hoping for players to come up with their own plots, then staff coming up with plots for players to adopt… and plots don't have to be huge, far reaching things. Plots can be character development, or small one off scenes."
Emma says, "They should be things the larger player base can participate in that matter to the story line, in order to be effective."
Avi says, "Throwing a party is a plot… doesn't touch the overreaching story arc, but is a plot nonetheless and something lots of people can get involved in… competitions are plots, same thing there… heck, a women's knitting circle is a plot, even if it only involves women."
Cian says, "Not always. Disregarding smaller TPs as just feeding ego instead of realizing it is a part of character development and not just for the 'core person' involved."
Emma says, "I understand what you're saying, Avi, but there is a reason those things aren't being picked up - on the game I help run we have PRPS being run constantly."
Emma says, "Because everything ties into something, we have a board where we have RP coordinators who get assigned plots for players to help run - you need someone spearheading a plot to know what the limits are."
Emma says, "How it fits into the larger story line, what's possible and what isn't."
Emma says, "I'm fine with smaller plots, people running their own thing, I'm not against character development, I'm talking about things that will help this game grow and people stick around."
Nar clears his throat gently.
<OOC> Aldren says, "You guys are too fast for me but partys arent plots. It is hard to get good char development with one person involved in your idea"
Emma says, "Unless the party is actually part of a climax of a plot - then okay. But just social things? Those are not plots."
Aldren says, "Or anything for that matter"
Avi says, "Every game is different… What works on one, may not on another. I have seen that concept do well and I have seen it fail."
Aldren says, "I like it."
Nar clears his throat a little more forcefully.
Aldren says, "Because shit fizzles here. NOTHING climaxes. OR so it seems"
Cian says, "Haven't seen me in the bedroom. Caboomching ;P"
Caedmon says, "I think that Nar has something more to say."
You say, "Nar, please speak."
Nar says, "First to address Aldren's comment, we will be closing sub arcs, to be sure. We realize we need to resolve several threads in this tapestry, and we will. Second, I'm kinda old school. I feel that as staff we have a responsibility to prove plots that have hooks for players to involve themselves in, and generate their own stories within that. I am not, nor have I ever been, one that encourages my staff to spoon feed every single possible RP possibility to every player here. I firmly believe that the the main person responsible for the character's development and entertainment is the player themselves. If you expect staff to run this as a constantly evolving novel, then this may not be the right game for you. We are happy, and we view it as our responsibility, to provide hooks and a fun environment. However, we are not going to micromanage every single RP detail on the game. If you wish to hook into the plot, and have your own ideas, please share them with us and we will do whatever we can to get them going for you. To me, MUSHing is not a spectator sport. you gotta be in the game to play the game."
Lilja says, "Giant beavers…"
Emma says, "Staff are limited, RP coordinators are not staff, but players who help run things. I get the staff shouldn't spoon feed things, and at no point did I ever suggest that. But Dair, who plays on my game knows, having more people to run things is HELPFUL so staff can focus on the MAIN PLOT."
Emma says, "Incredible stories get woven with the assistance of RP Coordinators, help free up staff to do the things we need to do without worrying about the PRPS, and coordinators have more powers than your average players, @tel abilities, etc, to help create and weave those stories for the players, who themselves run things in turn for others and themselves."
Emma says, "The RP Coordinators help take those hooks and blossom them, if players have ideas but don't want to run things for themselves, which is fine - it happens, you have to be able to help every player find their story line, the RP coordinators can assist."
Nar says, "I am not opposed to having RP coordinators, to be honest, they can be helpful, and you are right, they do serve a pivotal role. In an ideal world, those people would (or in my opinion) should be the heads of households. But I'm willing to entertain the idea, that door is not closed."
You say, "The overarching storyline is dealing with the return of magic and the gods awakening. We the staff are hoping that peace with laniveer can be sought out icly. As for plots, there are a lot of things that can be done that can tie in with that overarching plot line. I also like the idea of the +bbread board that has plots players can adopt and run if they wish to run them. Yet, like Avi said we also want plots that are like the ball or a tournament. This grid has been though many changes it is time for all us to take the bull by the horn and create some magic by being active as well. I also understand the difference between an rp coordinator and staff. I am honestly hoping we can find a balance between them. Yes we have had issues in the past with plots fizzling and I hope that we as whole can keep that from happening by being engaging and playing. Yes, will see about rp coordinators."
Emma says, "I think it's limiting to have them as heads of households and should have nothing to do with their IC position but OOC willingness, same on our game."
Emma says, "Events are different than plots, and I adore events, but plots should be things that move a larger piece of the story along for a larger # of characters. Social events are fun and a nice break from plots."
Emma says, "And heck, should take up the majority of time, socializing, all that fun stuff."
Kierne says, "If one were, say, rather turned off by the idea of RPing the return of deities and the invention of magic, is there any way to avoid that plotline, or are we pretty much boned, in that regard?"
Lilja says, "There was a game I played on where HOHs were restricted to people who were willing OOC to take an active role in furthering plot and were required to run TPs."
Emma says, "We also award our rp coordinators with XP for each event they run."
Lilja says, "I personally liked that idea, because it gave a direction for the players to turn IC and OOC that made sense."
Oxley says, "With all due respect, every game I have ever played on where staff took that new theory of staffing (players are responsible for story, not staff), has died. It just doesn't work. I apologize for being so blunt with my opinion. Providing hooks is not the same as telling a story. Hooks aren't plots. Players can't run plots in games like this because the politics are so beholden to staff NPCs that players are either intimidated not to or don't feel free to. Character development is the job of the player, no doubt. But the story of the world really needs to be helmed by the staff."
Emma says, "With XP going to a character of their choice, so it's a give and take."
Emma nods her head to Oxley.
Emma agrees 100%.
Jennah nods to Oxley.. thank you for typing out what I was thinking and not articulating.
Oxley really means that constructively, and not mean or unfriendly-like. I also reiterate, it is my OPINION.
Emma says, "Yes, please no flaming of opinion givers. :P"
Cian says, "But also waiting on staff to spoon feed can kill a game. These are all volunteer positions done on top of RL, jobs, etc. Taking responsibility for your own part of the greater story can help progress things as well in smaller ways at least."
Hadrian flames Emma.
Nar says, "This is where I will respectfully disagree with you, Emma. Someone who signs up for the responsbibility to run a house should have the equal desire to further plots along for their house within the larger story lines. Oxley, this is not a new idea. It's been how every MUSH I've played on since 1992 has done it. And perhaps I didn't really state it clearly enough, we provide the plot, YOU provide how your character gets involved in it. But we are not going to run 1000 subplots. And I don't flame people for having an opinion, if we didn't want to hear them, we wouldn't be here."
Emma says, "That's where RP Coordinators come in and opening it to more than just HOH, any player, who is willing and has shown initiative, should be able to take on that role."
Emma says, "Yes, for their own house."
Emma says, "What about the commoners."
Emma says, "Who have NO one."
You say, "Kierne for those players who do not want to be in the plot they do not have to be involved. The plots and the main story arch can happen around the character."
Emma says, "Its a ridiculous notion to me that HOHs keep things active for their houses, but not the rest of the game."
Lilja says, "Aren't most commoners tied to one house or another?"
Emma says, "And our game is flourishing because we open it up, so people who have no IC position, but a willingness, can advance the plot with us as staff."
Nar says, "Technically, even commoners were under a house. Just because they aren't landed, doesn't mean they aren't part of a family's lands."
Emma says, "Right, and tons of plots have happened for them."
Nar says, "OK, Emma, you want the job of RP Coordinator?"
Oxley really doesn't want this to be a "I have more experience than you so I'm right" debate. I'm just saying, that theory has never been as prominent in MUShs as it is today, and also, MUSHs have never struggled to be successful like they do today, too.
Hadrian says, "Yea, most HoHs are inactive currently. It shouldn't be limited to HoHs."
Emma says, "When HOHs are focused on their own kidnappings and inner house workings."
Avi says, "I don't believe it was said HoHs should only deal with running things in their house… but every commoner is from somewhere which is run by a HoH"
Oxley admits, I can be wrong. Ultimately, I just really like this game and want it to be better.
Oxley would definitely like to see RP geographically consolidated a bit more. Story has driven characters SO far apart, it's hard to find RP.
Emma says, "Sorry, Nar, for letting you know what works for us elsegame."
Emma says, "I thought this was an open venue for ideas."
Jennah says, "Well if we are supposed to develop our own story.. that's the part that strikes a chord with me, a more defined framework within which I can develop my charascter"
Nar says, "I'm offering you the position of RP Coordinator, Emma. I'm not disagreeing with you. And Oxley, I agree with that 100#183 We need to consolidate the grid, a lot. Something I've tasked Dair with doing."
You say, "It is and we are listening."
Emma says, "If I wanted to be an RP coordinator at this time I would have expressed as much."
Emma says, "I'm outlining the importance of them."
Nar says, "Then do you have anyone you would suggest for the position?"
Hadrian says, "I have no problems running a small plot say for the Kincaids. when I get motivated for it and feel up to it, I will do just that since it would only effect those being in the Kincaid house or those wish to join in and be tied to it. I get random thoughts of RP ideas every so often. Ask Sadie."
Hadrian says, "oops, Emma"
Nar says, "Please, this isn't me being argumentative, this is me genuinely interested in your idea."
Emma says, "How we do it, is we put a post out, asking for people who are interested."
Emma says, "And outlining the benefits"
Emma says, "How it benefits them as a coordinator, and how it benefits the larger game, and their duties."
Caedmon says, "Dair and I first discussed the idea of these meetings, the idea was to give everyone a chance to bring ideas for improving the game to the table."
Emma says, "Give the amount of xp per event for coordinator and players, etc etc."
Lilja says, "Perhaps the problem of things for commoners is that commoners may not have been aware of which HOH or person to go to for plots."
Emma says, "No, the problem is everything here is geared towards the nobility."
Emma says, "And then those that express interest are asked to run something so we can see how they run things, and so forth."
Emma says, "And it's worked amazingly well."
Nar will post something within the week for the position, so stay tuned.
Hadrian says, "the issue with commoners and nobles is most can't interadct much. Sometimes commoners wish to avoid nobles. Some are arragant pricks and some don't get out much. If there was something vast for commoners to play on, we'd have more. Currently, it's hard to be a commoner and get RP."
Aldren says, "I know I feel restricted with Eldwin because I don't really know what I have to offer or what other people need. I am pretty new to this type of stuff so you are all saying alot of good stuff I am just saying I feel….unable to play the role….When I have the time I will do whatever I can but my schedule is sporadic. I know I can't run a house and a kingdom. As proven ;) Perhaps if I knew more of the overarching line. But not bitching, and not here enough this ime of year. I guess what I am trying to say is if we had problems with T and C then will we not run into the same things (whatever they are) in LAniveer? Unless we get everyone together on the peace thing somehow? Just saying, I do not want to be responsible for slowing or hindering rp as I have been in the past. With Any char……..Especially Blian ««»»"
Cian says, "T and C?"
Caedmon says, "I can tell you, Aldren, that the idea of peace with Laniveer, and the possibility of RP relating to that, already has begun to surface. ;)"
Emma says, "Tyrel and ciarrah"
You say, "Tyrel and his wife."
<OOC> Cian says, "ah yes"
Emma says, "And thats the other issue, it's fine to run social events, but beyond that, staff keep a firm hold on the overarching story, which RP coordinators would help bridge. Or even the +bboard with the ideas for people to claim. We use the +jobs system on our game where our staff can read player ideas for plots, etc."
Lilja chuckles about Blian. "I think, perhaps, another thing is however you do it, whether through RP coordinator or HOHs being RP coordinators, we need to make sure the people know the game pretty well. When, as a character, I go to HOH, and they are not sure of theme or what they're doing, I don't feel comfortable saying, "Well… I've been give to understand this" and they're still learning theme.
Emma says, "I've been here for a while and I don't even entirely understand the theme."
Lilja says, "I thought +requests was how you got your story ideas and plot ideas to staff?"
Cian says, "Eldwin's wife has also agreed for him to meet with Tyrel to speak peace ;)"
Emma says, "We don't limit that, because as staff, we assign PRPs to our coordinator,s with info of what they need to run it, and possible outcomes depending on players decisions in the plot."
Emma says, "I don't think a heavy grasp of theme will make the HOHs jobs any easier, it's a firm grip on the story line currently occuring."
Emma says, "And clear direction of possibilities from staff of what could occur - nothing should be set in stone, players choices should change directions of the overall plot."
Oxley thinks that issue is that theme has changed here at least 3 times since I arrived. It's hard to know something that isn't consistent.
Emma nods to oxley
Cian says, "Speaking as Ophelie as well. I am open to comments and suggestions from the gallery. We are trying to grow the area and that can mean that our focus can be split at times to try to accomadate everyone in attendence. I think we are starting to reach critical mass and there is nearly daily RP. Would love more diplomatic RP between the areas. :)"
Emma says, "Shit, we've gone off canon so many times in our star wars games because player actions have changed the course of the story."
Caedmon says, "That is true. I think that Oxley arrived here near the time when I did. We've seen many dramatic changes."
Oxley says, "When I first started, the theme was "Darfield is a land of good surrounded by a world of turmoil." Then it became, "Darfield versus the evil Laniveer." Then it was "Darfield is run by crazy peeps and maybe Laniveer is actually the good guys!" And now it's, "The gods are back, everyone take a superpower!""
Oxley says, "None of those are bad themes, they are just all VERY different."
Cian says, "Also those themes are not mutually exclusive Oxley. Views of history change over time as well."
Emma says, "Well, is needs to be clear, is it good vs evil?"
Oxley agrees, Cian. But this isn't real life history. It's a game, and if we expect non-staffers to run things, the theme does need to be clear.
Cian says, "People who don't know Laniveeri may view them as Evil, Laniveeri's pov of view may be that Mobrin is evil or barbarians, or somesuch. That gods are stepping in doesn't preclude the history of the game of previous conflicts between countries."
Emma says, "Star wars has one over arching theme regardless of how history changes within it."
Emma says, "Its what makes it easy for people to get into the action asap."
Emma says, "But if the overall theme keeps changing, it's hard to know whats what in the broader story. Look at GoT. One large theme, wheels turning within it, but everyone knows it, you only need to read a brief synopsis to know whats happenign."
Oxley notes, a lot of the theme issues are more connected to staff changeover than to a shift in IC situations. Regardless, the end result is the same. If players are expected to run PRPs, a clear theme becomes necessary to establish.
Aldren says, "I think /most/ theme has remained the same. It is what the new player perceives is happening that has changed. When I say theme I mean, how folsk are addressed, clothing that sort of thing."
Hadrian says, "I personally like the idea of deities and magic returning. It opens up so many possiblities and ideas that if I ran a plot using some of that info, it would be epic, for all parties of each country. That';s me though."
Cian nods to Hadrian
Emma says, "No one's debating that, Hadrian!"
Emma says, "Magic and junk is kewl."
Aldren says, "Fuckin' A"
Cian says, "I know I have enjoyed it on my alt myself. Definately adding a layer to things, advancing character development in unexpected ways :)"
Hadrian wants the magic where he can make clothing vanish. Again, that's just me.
Kierne is, as previously mentioned, not really keen on the sudden!magic plotline. But I'm obviously in the minority.
You say, "That has been what we have been trying to explain, but other points had been brought up before the explanations could be finished. Give me a moment and let put together the thought and perhaps explain things little better about the theme."
Cian says, "But to Kierne's concern, I think it could be a time for the 'scientist' as well. The skeptic, the person who doesn't believe in the crazy shit happening and just has not witnessed it. Not everyone will witness happenings or be directly effected by the gods"
Kierne says, "It's really hard to 'not witness' all this stuff, though, when it's like a bludgeon across the head."
Oxley thinks the magic returning plot works better a bit more in moderation. It's not a scary secret if every character gets some.
Oxley points at Kierne. "What he says."
Kierne says, "Maybe if it were only in vague dreams or visions for those who were interested in it?"
Nar says, "A sufficiently advanced technology is indisinguishable from magic :)"
Aldren says, "It does not have to be that w. Aldren for example sees all sorts of stuff but is still a skeptic in many ways. You don't have to buy into 'the gods' and such"
Avi says, "Not every character does… there are tons of NPCs that likely aren't getting anything. PCs are always supposed to be the special ones… the best of the best"
Nar says, "And when the glitter boys come marching across the fields…er, wait, was that my out loud voice?"
Cian says, "I think there is a balance too, I have heard both sides of that from different people some thinking the magic is too isolated to a select group of people and some who say its too widespread. Trying to keep a balance to keep everyone happy can be difficult."
Oxley has to go, he works early. But, I love all of you and I really do want for this game to grow and thrive! Thank you staff for holding this meeting and for the most part not taking opinions or suggestions as attacks. :)
Emma says, "Later Oxley!"
Aldren says, "Peace!"
Kierne waves :)
Cian says, "A lot of the gifts can be explained by the 'scientist' as people who just happen to be really good at what they do to a gifted level or people just more aware of surroundings and stuff"
Nar says, "And, Kierne, you could be one of those people that is immune to the effects, etc. There are ways you can be excluded. We will work with you, just as players should involve themselves, they also don't have to participate in anything they don't wish to."
Oxley says, "Night"
Jennah says, "in the meantime.. from a player's perspective, and one who is 1-newish to this game, 2-knew no one here and found it by accident, 3-isn't staff or anyone in any important position.. it /is/ fun to develop one's character through events and instances that are out of my control. I do not expect to be spoon fed, but I do enjoy the unknown. Just saying. Carry on with the magicks."
Cian would be upset to loose my brother in arms ;)
Emma says, "Well, also with the magic thing there haven't been any real repercussions for it despite us apparently being inflicted with it."
Emma says, "And the broader believe ICly being that it's evil and stuff."
Aldren says, "Also, there is…what she said. You are supposed to be afraid of burning at the stake if /you/ get caught with it by certain folks"
You say, "The overarching storyline is dealing with the return of magic and the gods awakening. We the staff are hoping that peace with Laniveer can be sought out icly. But this will be up to the players. Just because there is peace the question becomes, How long will it last? Icly and theme wise there is a lot of bad blood between them. Also this magic has been in the making for a while, this did not happen. There is good vs evil, there is also the plot of man vs man, man vs nature and man vs himself. Yes there will be more repurcussions."
Nar says, "Not yet, no. Right now we want to close the Laniveer/Mobrin arc before releasing the hounds."
Emma says, "I mean, with Victoria, her eyes have gone from brown to a crazy assed blue, but everyone is like, doo doo doo."
Emma says, "Giving her thumbs up, carrying on like nothing."
Aldren says, "Oh, well I ran events where folks where burned. It is what I was led to believe….Though things do change. We should hammer that down haha. OR aprently we have…."
Jennah says, "Well to be fair one of those people didn't know her before"
Emma says, "People who do, Jennah."
Emma says, "I don't expect strangers to notice. :P"
Emma says, "There should be repercussions if it's ICly something that is thought of as bad ICly - the arc is the arc, but it's part of the theme and something that should be addressed, no? I mean, while the arc is happening unless everyone is putting aside their beliefs for the war to end?"
Avi says, "Some people don't notice. I recall one person, no names as not sure if they are still around, was in several scenes with Laine. Every scene and his short desc mentions his eye patch and missing eye. Halfway through a scene months after I started here he went… wait, Laine has one eye"
Emma says, "Yep, but perhaps that's something staff can put out there for players to hook onto, is that people are starting to notice."
Cian says, "And how people react to a character is up to them. They may have their own reasons for not reaction. Maybe they just missed it in a pose, maybe their character is self doubting what they See ICly, 'Maybe she always had blue and I never noticed', some people just don't want to deal with the conflict?"
Emma says, "Guards are being more wary, people are being apprehended, etc."
Emma says, "You guys are missing my point. :P"
Jennah nods to Cian
Aldren says, "Yea, folks get to skate. This is gonna go from a border war to a religion vs magic war haha or some kind of cleansing!!"
Emma says, "More stake burnings, more hunting of the people who are changing, those being touched by magic."
Aldren says, "YES"
Emma says, "Yeah, I mean shit. If nothing is going to happen that's fine, why even make it a big deal theme wise then? :P"
Emma says, "But I know Lae, ICly, would be rounding up the masses and burning folks, you know."
Emma says, "Protect the people not only from the Lannies but the demon tainted."
Avi says, "But burning smells… I prefer keel hauling… less mess to clean up."
Emma says, "If it's not the pCS reaction, that's fine, but NPCs and the like should be."
Avi says, "Then have them react. You can control NPCs as much as anyone else. If you have them react maybe others will jump in and throw in something more."
Nar says, "that's an excellent point."
Emma sighs, "Okay. Heaven forbid staff put something up about murmurings and the like.
Nar says, "And we'll post some things about off camera repercussions for people to play off of as well. However, I feel this has mostly ran its course."
Kierne says, "If we kill all the people with magic, can the magic plot be over? :D"
Kierne kids, kids.
Nar notes my "excellent point" was to you emma about NPC reactions.
Nar says, "But at this point, I'm going to call this done. Please don't be shy to contact staff further with any ideas you have. Thanks everyone for attending, and for your input."